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Old 05-13-2011, 10:55 AM   #21
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4/25/11
Warren-RB

Thanks to Mike’s invitation and the warm welcome. First please allow me to briefly introduce myself.

I have been a mechanical engineer (BSME) throughout my whole career. Prior to my brake business, I worked for Worhtington Corp. (Mountainside, NJ) making fluid (gas and liquid) handling equipment such as pumps and compressors as a Project Manager, where I specialized in hydraulic and heat transfer.

My business in aftermarket automotive, before performance parts, was undercar parts; brake & suspension, drop shipping to national distributors/accounts and private label programs. In early 2000, RacingBrake.com was established for performance brakes.

Performance is quite different from traditional aftermarket, I quickly learned. Users are usually more informed of the latest developments than shop mechanics, and they exchange views and ideas on forums (like we are doing now). Racing professionals as well as weekend warriors are constantly searching for new products that can perform better, last longer and hopefully cost less, so they can push over their limits. That’s what makes motorsports so challenging and thrilling.

Upon doing research on what was available and how these “performance” brakes are made and marketed, I know they can be improved. As a result I have received three (3) patents from USPTO in brake design. All of these patents are built into our brake products with proven results on tracks, which will be further elaborated as the discussion continues.

As Mike stated, we shall keep our discussion subjective and practical, we also welcome other brake companies to join the discussion, so we can learn together.

Thanks
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:06 AM   #22
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4/25/11
landjet

"I'd like to ask what is new in the endurance pad field? Since good race pads are expensive, any material that will make them last longer without sacrificing stopping power would be great. Currently I am using Pagid yellows and blacks and am happy with brake feel and performance. What are these pads made of? Are ceramic materials the wave of the future and an improvement on current products?"

"Originally Posted by jcb-memphis
Ditto to Larry's question: I am using EBC yellowstuff pads and OEM rotors and am a midlevel DE guy...looking for a compromise pad that I can street and track...so far I am happy. For me, so far, the stock brakes, these pads and rotors, SRF and better air ducts have been fine...."


Question on brake pad choice such as which compound is best for me is more of an "application" concern, which is closely related to one's driving skill/habits; when (early/late) and how (heavy/light) his brake is applied. In general I would say a brake pad that can last 3 or 4 track days is considered normal, while for a different driver, the same pad may not last even one track day. So I should say novice drives tend to consume brake pads quicker than experienced driver.

We found the most challenge remains for the pad mfgrs today is yet to come out a compound that is good for both street and track as most people prefer not to switch the pads.

Unfortunately the dilemma is that desirable characteristics usually work opposite (Friction vs. Noise & Dust). When you are on track you want the highest friction (wishfully not to score your rotor), but on street, you may not mind on dusting but certainly not squeaking, nor you want no brake in cold winter as pulling your car out of the garage.
So an ideal pad for aggressive street/spirited/auto crossing/HPDE would be:

1. · Good friction/modulation
2. · Very low dust/or easy to clean
3. · No or occasional light squeaking (depending on the compounds you choose)
4. · No temperature effect
5. · Good durability
6. · Reasonably priced

So the answer is which criteria is more important to you or missing. I prefer not to get into suggesting a specific brand or compound at this time so our discussion remains impartial.

This thread is open to other friction mfgrs - I will let Andreas Boehm of Pagid know of this thread so he can tell you more about their compounds and offer his recommendation. Other motorposrts friction mfgrs that I think has the same competency may also show up here.

Thanks for reading.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:07 AM   #23
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4/25/11
landjet

OK, let's narrow this down then. What endurance pads do you make? What kind of longevity do you see from your pads? What materials do you use? Do ceramic pads have advantages or disadvantages for track use?

As far as how I use my pads:
1} My car is 95% track driven.
2} As you mentioned, when I was new to the track, I would brake late and hard, 3 years later I brake earlier and not so hard or as long.
3} My criteria is good modulation, performs well at track temperatures, and long rotor and pad life.

With this information, which of your track pads would you recommend? How do they compare to Pagid yellows?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:08 AM   #24
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Here is the message from Pagid:

Hi Warren,

I don’t have an account with Renntrack. Maybe you can put it on.

The color coded yellow Pagid RS19 and RS29 friction compounds are the most used and most successful endurance race pads. We are OE on all Porsche race cars and have the most wins in international endurance racing such as Le Mans, Daytona, Sebring, Spa etc. For example 77% of all cars including the winner Chip Ganassi Racing used Pagid pads on this years Rolex 24 hour race in Daytona. That was our 8th win in 10 years in Daytona. Porsche factory teams such as Flying Lizard have been using Pagid pads for many years. The same pads as the pros can be used by the club racer.


I am on my way to Miller Motorsports Park and have limited access to e-mails. If you need any more info please call me on my cell.

Kind regards
Andreas

BT Brake Technology / PAGID Motorsports / TMD Friction
race engineering support
Andreas Boehm
P.O. Box 152235
Cape Coral, FL 33915
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:10 AM   #25
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4/26/11
MIOBONIC

We would love to have Andreas from pagid join RennTrack and to discuss the pagid products and their offerings.

It would be great to discuss with him brake pads and the difference and so forth.

I am extending an invitation to Andreas if he want to chime in we would love to have him.

Thanks to Warren and Mike for getting the conversation started
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:11 AM   #26
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4/27/11
996tt_Stevo

Welcome Warren, its good to get some technical advice.

From a Pad point of view, there is no doubt in my mind that Pagid 19's/29's are one of the best pads around, I switched last year to Performance Friction 01 Race Pad & Rotor up front and these have been equally as good in stopping power... I have tried EBC and Carbone Lorrane (CL with new Rotors) and they don't have anywhere near the stopping power/performance of both Pagid or PF
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:11 AM   #27
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4/27/11
Mikelly
Larry, It's my understanding that Warren makes rotors, and not pads.

Gang, here's something that should be considered... The rotor, pad, caliper, brake fluid, and TIRE COMPOUND all play a role. How much airflow you can get to the rotors (and what is not to much, depending on the atmospheric conditions) and what type of track you are driving will also lend themselves to the mix...

Advising to use "X" pad for anyone in the intermediate to advanced driving category really is a hard nut to crack.

Stevo, You know I've recommended Pagid Yellows in the past, but I must admit, the more I drive on them, the less I like them. I don't like the lack of bite, the lack of release, and the lack of "feel" as compared to the HAWKS I'm running on our specmiata. Something I've questioned for the last year is why PAGIDs have always been recommended... I remember when I bought my Porsche, my closest Porsche friend at the time said "Don't put those Hawks you been running on your Vette on that thing. They won't hold up". So I did as I was told... But those "Hawks" have performed flawlessly on every other platform I've driven over the years... Now, This last statement isn't meant to "Beat up on Pagid". I still have a BUNCH of their pads I'm going to finish up with before experimenting with something else. But that said, the charictaristics of my car are different than yours, and different than Larry's and so on and so forth. Each of us drives differently, too. This all lends to different people walking away with different impressions about pads and what they do for them. Maybe it has less to do with a pad's performance and more to do with a contaminant in the caliper? Or not enough cooling? Or maybe something else... Who knows... The point is that the variables are greater than an amature like me could ever want to guess at.

I encourage you guys to engage Warren on the subject of brake components and functionality. But he's not here to recommend company a over company b. Let's get down to the engineering and science of stopping mass in motion...

Mike
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:12 AM   #28
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4/27/11
landjet

OK, let's try this question. Warren, tell us about the alloys used in brake rotors. I have heard that some slotted rotors last longer than others. Why is that? Purely driver related or material related? What do you use in your rotors?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:29 AM   #29
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4/27/11
Warren-RB

A brake system primarily consists of three major components:

* Caliper
* Rotor
* Pad

All are equally important however how they are made of, and expected to perform are not all the same, for example the prime concern on caliper is rigidity (less flex), and the pad should deliver good modulation, consistent torque w/o fading.

Since pad and caliper are stationary (no dynamic), therefore their properties are more related to how the material (or compound/mfg process for pad) are used to produce for different purpose and performance result, with little (for caliper) and/or no (for pad) design involved that can contribute to performance improvement.

That's why you never heard a brake pad mfgr would claim they "design" a better pad than others, rather they claim they make pad with "better compound" for better result. The automotive industry follows FMSI (Friction Material Standard Institute) standard for the Shoe# (steel baking plate D#), and Lining (friction#), so a brake pad mfgr can only differentiates he is "better" by its compound but not by design.

Rotor is different and is the most important part of the three, it's the heat conversion center that converts all the moving energy into heat, and dissipates to the environment before the system gets over-heated.

Most people (including professional racers) know a better brake system is to run it cool - by installing cooling ducts, however very few would be searching for a better designed and more cooling efficient rotor like two piece rotors. But are all the benefits claimed true or just a marketing gimmick, or if they worth for the money? or if there is a better one out there.

This is where the challenge comes in that leads me into in-depth research in designing a non-conventional two piece rotor, material formulation, heat treatment, and gone through all kind of experiment and tests on tracks for the most cooling efficient light weight two piece rotors that setting the new standard of two piece rotors for the racing performance industry.

Advantage of a cooler rotor not only will improve the overall braking efficiency, extend the life of associated components, preserving wheel bearings, ball joints, requires less change of brake fluid, Above all it gives you the confidence you need to brake late and win the races.

This post simply reminds you when you consider upgrading your brakes what's more important to look - the rotor. Understand the brake pad is compressed (stressed) between caliper piston and rotor surface, if you don't have a good rotor that can quickly and efficiently drain the heat, even you have the biggest and stiffest caliper, and most abrasive pads. The heat sink (rotor) is going to overflow (overheated) causing some undesirable results, let alone the replacement cost and frustrations.

We do make aluminum caliper kits, OE caliper kits and ET series street pads other than two piece stock replacement rotors. Since we make both rotor and pad so we are on both sides of fences, however for motorsports pads I would rather not to get into deep discussion nor recommending the compounds of your particular interest, so I asked Anreas to reiterate their credentials and their Yellows'. I will do the same to Edwin from Hawk, and Andie from Colbalt Friction to make their case and I hope any dialogs between you and them are constructive and beneficial.

Thanks
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:31 AM   #30
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4/28/11
andiewlin_CFT

Brake System Performance, etc.

Firstly, I have to say that this relatively new forum has a great look/feel to it, so great job to the adminstrators, etc. Secondly, I haven't posted on a forum of any kind for over 5 years, so if any mis-steps are made (e.g. misquoting previous posts, improper message formatting, etc.), please do forgive me, but also kindly bring it to my attention for future reference.

I have found that among the numerous brake pad/friction manufacturers that are active in the U.S. marketplace, each one certainly has its place and core market demographic, attributable to various factors such as (1) product suitability for a given application, (2) availability, (3) marketing/promotion influence, (4) pricing, (5) historical usage, etc. Due to the technical aspirations and nature of this new forum, it makes sense here to focus on (1) production suitability for a given aplication. This will also remove any subjectivity with regards to other factors, in particular (3) through (5), which can, at best cloud this discussion with irrelevant information.

I see already that the basic tenets of brake system operation and performance have already been laid out. My specific areas of expertise are friction material design & raw material analysis, brake pad construction, and race vehicle brake setup, so my comments will be confined to these areas.

Selecting the proper friction material/brake pad for your platform requires first identifying the physical requirements, taking into account factors such as (1) chassis setup, (2) driving style and skill level, (3) associated equipment compatibility (e.g. type of discs, calipers, cooling setup, ABS or non-ABS, etc.), etc. When describing friction materials and determining suitability, I prefer to address the primary characteristics of (1) initial bite/torque, (2) torque transition at line pressure stabilization, (3) torque ramp rate, (4) modulation and (5) release, with these five characteristics being affected by the initial disc temperature (i.e. the disc temp upon entry into a given brake zone). Other aspects I group into "secondary considerations", such as (1) disc finish and wear rate, (2) pad wear rate, (3) dust/noise levels, etc. We'l start with the following information, but I can't comment on all of the aforementioned (and more) in this first post due to time considerations; I'll come back and write more if there is any interest.

Friction Material Characteristics

(1) Initial bite/torque is fairly self-explanatory, describing the level of braking torque generated for a given amount of line pressure input. Initial bite/torque levels can be simplified as being either high, medium, or low, with variations in between the three basic levels; a high initial bite material in the front of a vehicle will increase both the rate and magnitude of weight transfer under braking and give the driven the sensation of being "thrown into their belts". The majority of enthusiasts look for a strong/high initial bite, due to the sensation of braking it imparts, often described as "confidence inspiring" when applying the brake pedal, but this is not always the most efficient or effective way to decelerate the vehicle. At the end of the day, we need to look at overall brake platform dynamics and determine the maximum amount of brake torque that can be applied in the front and rear to yield balanced braking, both on initial application (what I call "initial set down"), and also throughout the remainder of the brake zone, with release at/near the end of the zone being a further area of tunability. To help you visualize different torque levels, see the following inertia dyno graphs.

RennTrack_Example 1.pdf High Initial Bite, Medium-High Ramp Rate
RennTrack_Example 2.pdf Medium-High Initial Bite, Medium Ramp Rate
RennTrack_Example 3.pdf Medium Initial Bite, Low Ramp Ramp Rate
RennTrack_Example 4.pdf Low-Medium Initial Bite, Medium Ramp Rate
RennTrack_Example 5.pdf Extremely High Initial Bite, High Ramp Rate
RennTrack_Example 6.pdf High Initial Bite, Low to Flate Ramp Rate

As you can see from the 6 examples above, the level of initial bite/torque can be mutually exclusive to ramp rate. Specifically, when comparing Ex. 1 to Ex. 6, upon applying the brake pedal, the driver would feel the "same" weight transfer and sensation of being "thrown into the belts" in the first 0.2-0.3s, but in Ex. 1, they would continue to feel weight transfer and pitch under hard braking and have the sensation of better deceleration (this is all assuming we're approaching but not beyond the total grip envelope/brake platform), whereas in Ex.6 after the first 0.5s, the vehicle would still be decelerating at a linear rate, but the sensation of decel would not be as apparent. Similarly, with Ex. 5, the extremely high initial bite would be "confidence inspiring", but for a platform where Ex. 1 would be optimal, the driver would find it much more difficult to modulate through the brake zone, and the release would also suffer.

I offer these examples up to help you visualize what your brakes are actually doing in terms of friction-couple and torque level when you apply the pedal. It may be getting a bit too far into the minutia of it all, but information is information.

Well, my time is up on this first post and I have to get back to other projects. I realize this is only 10% of what was originally laid out, but I'll get back to this and flesh it out, if you will, in greater detail if there is interest. One thiing to keep in mind is that when looking at what the "pros" as using, and Cobalt Friction fields numerous pro teams in Grand Am, World Challenge, Indy Lights, Nascar Nationwide and Truck, etc., more time than not, the level of tunability on "pro" cars is not available on track-day vehicles, nor is the level of data acquisition to the same level. I spend countless hours each race weekend reviewing line pressure, shock position, ABS trigger points, etc. with chassis engineers/teams to determine the optimal compound configuration for each vehicle/track/driver combination. In some cases, a small change such blocking rear ducts from 25% to 35% is all it takes to address entry instability. And often times, for a multi-car team, the setup for one of the cars will be very different than the other car(s).

Again, great new forum...hope to be back soon; I'd like to opportunity to describe difference in compound types (e.g. resin-bonded/molded versus sintered) and their key characteristics, among several other relevant topics.

Regards,

Andie W. Lin
Director of Motorsports R&D
Cobalt Friction Technologies
www.cobaltfriction.com
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:32 AM   #31
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"Originally Posted by landjet
OK, let's try this question. Warren, tell us about the alloys used in brake rotors. I have heard that some slotted rotors last longer than others. Why is that? Purely driver related or material related? What do you use in your rotors?"


Copper, Chromium and Nickle are used in our "two piece" racing rotors, however alloy is only one of the several ways to improve the rotor performance and durability, the carbon content and how the carbon (graphite) is distributed in a matrix is actually more important.

I should say about 2/3 of a rotor failure can be attributed to the disc material, and the other 1/3 is made up from the driver by using improper pad compounds, and/or how he handles his brakes (bedding, warm up, stopping etc.)

One piece rotor = Hat and disc are integrated as one (Cast Iron)
Two piece rotor = Hat (Aluminum) + Disc (Cast Iron). Disc is also known as rotor ring.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:34 AM   #32
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4/28/11
huangover

Thanks for sharing Warren, I'm sure I speak for all RT members that we thoroughly enjoy this type of discussion and your professional contribution here. I have a question related specifically to my car, I drive a 2006 Cayman S. In my class, we aren't allowed to upgrade to 2 pc rotors, or larger rotors. Simply speaking, I'm allowed to upgrade to a rotor of the same size that's a direct OEM replacement. I've heard many say slotted may be better, they don't crack as much, etc... what are my choices for direct OEM rotor replacements for my car? Can you dispel the myth that slotted is better? Which would be superior and why? The timing of this discussion is great, since I'm about a month away from having to replace my stock rotors. Thanks!
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:35 AM   #33
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4/28/11
landjet

Slotted is superior because they are not prone to cracking between the holes like a drilled rotor which speeds the end of life. Slotted rotors last longer because they don't have holes. They still crack but at a slower rate.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:39 AM   #34
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4/28/11
landjet

Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Warren-RB Click here to enlarge

I should say about 2/3 of a rotor failure can be attributed to the disc material, and the other 1/3 is made up from the driver by using improper pad compounds, and/or how he handles his brakes (bedding, warm up, stopping etc.)
How do you determine what is the proper pad compound?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:39 AM   #35
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4/28/11
huangover

Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by landjet Click here to enlarge
Slotted is superior because they are not prone to cracking between the holes like a drilled rotor which speeds the end of life. Slotted rotors last longer because they don't have holes. They still crack but a much slower rate.
How about performance of slotted rotors. I understand they last longer, but do they actually perform better? Also, are they easier on the pads or is it the same?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:40 AM   #36
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4/28/11
Warren-RB

The pro & con of disc finishes (plain, drilled, slotted, drill+ slot) is probably the most debated topic in modern performance brake industry and in car forums.

Before we get into this discussion, I think it’s helpful for us to learn the characteristics of Linear Thermal Expansion Rate of a cast iron which is 0.00000655/unit length/deg F (Machinery Handbook 21st ed. page 2270).

So let’s say a rotor with 14” (355mm) in diameter, and runs at 1000 deg F, by calculation (.00000655x355x1000) the rotor will expand 2.33mm radially. Likewise a smaller rotor (13” 332mm) at a temperature range of 500 deg F, it expands only 1.09mm. So we know a rotor does expand (at high temperature) and contracts (low temp). How much the volume of a rotor changes?. It depends on the length (rotor diameter) and how the temperature varies.

A good brake disc must be able to withstand these temperature fluctuations, as thermal cycle induces stress in the iron, these stresses typically result in crazing, surface cracks which may grow and connect that eventually leads to fracture (cracks).

The following are some common ways and means to reduce or minimize the “volume change” during thermal cycles.

Material:

* Increase carbon content
* Add alloys (supplement)
* Heat treatment

Design:

* Make more cooling efficient discs - curved vane
* Increase the cooling surfaces - drilling holes

Construction:

* Use aluminum hat (two piece rotors) to distant the heat from disc

Application:

* Install cooling ducts


Once we know why and how a rotor can crack (or warp), it should help you become more intelligent and understand that disc finish is only a small part of the intended solutions for improved performance and durability (prevent cracking). But if you take a look what the “performance market” is today; different suppliers offer various style (straight, curved, dimple…) and patterns etc., each company is trying to convincing you they have the best.

We will take a closer look, w/o too expansive, on various disc finishes, and hopefully it can further clarify some confusions and mysteries, and may be a solution for your Cayman.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:41 AM   #37
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4/28/11
lanjet
Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by huangover Click here to enlarge
How about performance of slotted rotors. I understand they last longer, but do they actually perform better? Also, are they easier on the pads or is it the same?
From my experience they perform the same and the pads last the same. It is the longevity of the rotor that makes a difference. Perhaps Warren has more to add to this.

Also Warren, how do you determine which is the proper pad?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:42 AM   #38
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4/29/11
BGB Motorsports

Here's my $.02...

Unfortunately, when it comes to brake pads, rotors and even calipers, it's like chassis setup in that everyone has something that they've tried and they like better than something else. How does that old saying go? Opinions are like ____; everyone has one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks but their own? Well, like it or not, it happens with brakes.

As for my background and who we are, while we haven't been around for a very long time, since 2004 we have been preparing street stock based Porsche 996s, 997s and now Caymans to be raced in Grand-Am's Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge Series. Therefore, the cars that we race are closer to stock than anything else Porsche on the race track and therefore, the tricks that we've learned along the way appeal to the DE or club level race driver because after all, our cars are very similar to theirs. We don't run PMNA built GT3 Cup cars and therefore, these cars are still, like it or not, STREET STOCK RACE CARS.

During my time here at BGB Motorsports, we started with Hawk brake pads in 2004, then moved to PFC. In 2007 I switched us to Pagid RS19s and Girodisc rotors and until last year, we ran nothing on our Porsches but slotted Girodisc rotors and Pagid brake pads. Typical race weekends average about 5 hours on track and we've completed four 6-hour VIR races on this brake package. In 2010 and 2011 when we switched platforms to the Cayman, we continued on the Girodisc rotors and switched to Cobalt Friction pads. Since we've been running either Pagid brake pads or Cobalt brake pads for nearly half a decade now, I figured I would chime in. I don't forum post much anymore because the verbal bashers leave a bad taste in the flytrap. I will try and add what I will label as my own OPINION for brake technology when it comes to Porsches at the DE or club racing level.

Onto a perfect brake discussion example: Person A is not a hard braker but a soft braker; Person B is the opposite. Person A likes his aggressive pads because he doesn’t brake hard but Person B loves to grenade the pedal and will never be a soft braker. So, which pad is right for me? Short answer is, whichever as in whichever suits your driving style. Therefore, can I answer the question that is on everyone's mind that is "what is the best brake pad/rotor for me?" Not unless I had you standing next to me for an entire day on track with YOU driving YOUR car. There are just too many variables to have a correct answer for one person. I'm sorry.

I know that's not what you wanted to hear but it's true. Look at the questions you could be asking yourself adinfitum:

1. These pads stop the car perfectly for my braking style. Are they the right pads for me? (not if they eat your rotors in 2 weekends causing you to have to change brake rotors every other track event).

2. These PCNA drilled rotors feel great but the holes in them start cracking after 2 events. Are they the wrong rotors for me? (Not necessarily. While drilled rotors have holes in them to release heat, they have lost surface area to achieve this. So, they crack sooner. If your car starts cracking OEM rotors after 3 weekends, that's not good UNLESS they're so cheap that you can throw them away instead of spending $2K 2-piecerotors. Then it's not necessarily a bad thing. Sure it's not optimal but they'll just expire sooner and if they cost $120 as opposed to something else, then not bad. (side note: While i may have just given my opinion as to why slotted rotors are better than drilled, if you're in a ridiculously light car with AMAZING amounts of brake cooling, those weak drilled rotors may last even longer than normally. So, while I've found that drilled rotors don't last as long as slotted ones, the same case may not apply to someone that has a muchless restricted rules package about brake cooling. I'm just rambling because I don’t want my opinion on drilled vs. slotted above be construed as gospel; it's just something that has worked better for us given our constraints.)

3. These pads work awesome but they create way too much dust and material. Are they the right pads for me? Have you said that? You should listen to yourself because like it or not, it's another applicable question regarding "is this the right brake pad for me?"

I guess if we absolutely had to boil it down into two simple questions you could ask yourself, they would be as follows:

1. What brake pad/rotor package is perfect for my desired ratio of dollars spent per available track weekends? In other words, what pad/rotor combo allows me to go to the track the most times without a swap?

2. Which brake pad/rotor package suits my level of driving aggression? If you can spend enough time with yoru car to answer those questions, you’ll be fine.

Ultimately, we switched to Cobalt Friction not only just for performance reasons because the manufacturer is right there in the paddock next to us taking temps on pit road, calling us week in and week out to see what our braking wishes/goals are, asking us questions like “do we need to change compounds for you? Do we need to make something else for you that works better? This is the sort of love that you want from a company when you’re spending $3000 per weekend in brake pads across 3 cars. The phone rings, they answer and at the end of the day, sometimes that’s all that matters for us. And I've seen them spend as much time with people only buying 1 set for 1 car. They get it!

John
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:43 AM   #39
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4/29/11
Niraj Shekhar

This thread has been solid reading. Thanks to everyone for contributing.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:43 AM   #40
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4/29/11
lanjet

John, thanks for your input. Very sensible.
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