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Old 05-13-2011, 11:44 AM   #41
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4/29/11
BGB Motorsports

No worries. There really is no written gospel about this stuff and until I finish my writing of The Idiot's Guide to Porsche Tuning, we're stuck doing homework on our own and the single best form of it, albeit very expensive, is trial and error.

Enjoy!
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:45 AM   #42
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4/29/11
Warren-RB

Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by landjet Click here to enlarge
How do you determine what is the proper pad compound?
Since the pad compound has more variety of choice/selection than caliper and rotor, and the selection (need) can change along with your driving skills, so choosing/suggesting a proper compound is a constant challenge for both driver and pad mfgr, especially for intermittent weekend racers.

I think a pad mfgr should publish a friendly and easy to follow selection guide, than citing those professional racing applications - which they sponsor to get the publicity but the consumers who pay for their pads are driving a stock car (weight wise).

A good learning process would be to experience slight/occasional fading initially, and learn how to cope with it and manage your brake in a way to avoid it, than looking for a higher or different compound, I am sure you will learn a lot from your own home work, and realize later that what you really need is improving your driving skill than switching a compound.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:46 AM   #43
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4/29/11
MOBONIC

Awesome post John.

I agree 100%.

I went from the Pagid RS19 to PFC 06 pad because unlike the initial bite and torque curve better for my driving, I knownay have done the opposite and are now happy with pagid.

There too many subjective variables to say which brake pad is beat, there is just what characteristics you are looking for and then there is a beat brake pads to fit that. Best way to find out is trial and error.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:47 AM   #44
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4/29/11
Warren-RB

Disc Finish Comparison

Comparison is based on plain finish rotor

Drilled Rotors

Pros

* Reduce weight
* Improve cooling (more edge surface area)
* Increase bite (via edges of those holes)
* Appealing look

Cons

* More prone to crack during heat cycles
* Shorten pad life
* Create uneven (wavy) rotor surface
* Reduce braking surface

Slotted Rotors

Pros

* Help pad gas escape
* Retain more braking surface
* Less prone to crack

Cons

* Prone to warping (rather than cracking) due to no relief for heat cycles
* Slots get clogged up with brake debris causing glazing disc surface
* Can induce pulsation due to slots filling unevenly with debris
* Slots can disappear unevenly as disc wears out

Bold are what most people are concerned and complain about. RB makes both finishes, and over the years I should say most street drivers like “Drilled” mainly for the look, and they don't have cracking issues. Event / track oriented drivers prefer “Slotted” for longevity. Both choices have their validity. Aside from professional racers, the choice of disc finish is more of a personal preference to fit his driving style. We can cover later on what a hard core racer should be more looking at for a rotor beyond the disc finish, the brake torque.

Can there be an optimal disc finish that will have the pros without the cons?? A finish that can meet both street and track drivers' expectations; Improve braking efficiency, last longer and look great... This was a quest that constantly struck me that ultimately led to my creation of the “Open Slot” finish.

Here is a quick link to our website with illustrations describing those features.
http://www.racingbrake.com/v/main/two_piece_compare.asp

Open slot design was initially introduced to EVO 8 and STi in 2004, and nowadays it's the standard finish on all of our two piece rotors plus some selected one piece rotors.

Pictures are taken from VW MK5 R32 (345x30) two piece rotors. (19 lbs vs. stock one piece 27 lbs)



Click here to enlarge
Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
Click here to enlargeClick here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

Last edited by Warren-RB; 05-03-2011 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:47 AM   #45
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4/29/11
landjet

Very interesting innovation Warren. Do these deeper, wider slots scrape more surface off the pads as they rotate, therefore shortening their life?

I noticed on your website that under the heading "select by vehicle" that Porsche is not listed.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:48 AM   #46
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4/30/11
Mikelly

Larry, Porsche is a new area of interest for Warren, which is why he has come to Renntrack...

Mike
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:49 AM   #47
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4/30/11
sin911

Wow! Very informative thread Click here to enlarge Thank you for joining and providing all this information Warren!
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:49 AM   #48
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5/1/11
Warren-RB

Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by landjet Click here to enlarge
Very interesting innovation Warren. Do these deeper, wider slots scrape more surface off the pads as they rotate, therefore shortening their life?
The (surface) slotting has been a major concern that can accelerate the pad wear* (than plain finish-no slot). It's a legitimate concern - in the number of slotting (edges - two per slot), but is not related the width and depth, because when a pad whopping through the disc at thousands RPM speed, the pad contacts the same number of edge (two -entry & exit). Contrary to common thought a deep and wider slot actually allows more room for pad and disc to "breath" each other better than surface slotting with little space or no room (plain finish).

My open slots have two stage design - First is a wider and shallower one (curve slot) functioning as a "ditch", or reservoir to collect brake debris, 2nd stage is the oblong holes that are milled through the disc surface between the cooling vanes acting as a "drain". Same principal as we see in our street draining system.

Open slots design has several proven advantages that benefit all level of drivers (street & track):

1. Increase the cooling surfaces (via those vertical walls) - Keep the disc cooler
2. Maintain a clean and razor sharp disc surface all the time (in decimal seconds) - Improve braking efficiency
3. Oblong thru-holes help to relief the stress during heat cycles - Reduce the chance of cracking or warping. I often cite this anti-crack provision example as you see in a railroad track (in section), and in a concrete slabs (slits).
4. The open slots are stagger on both sides (total 12 slots with 30 deg apart) to maintain a more uniform temperature across the disc surface (IB and OB) - Minimize un-even pad wear due to temperature variation.
5. Open slots create a vacuum effect via centrifugal force, in expelling those brake dust and debris towards the wall of wheels than bouncing to the wheel spokes - Cleaner wheels.

I noticed on your website that under the heading \\\"select by vehicle\\\" that Porsche is not listed.
Yes I apologize. As Mike mentioned, Porsche will be a new area for us, but we will be soon releasing our two piece rotors for most of the late models.

Notably like Porsche with rear emergency drum brake will be benefited from our recent successful development of "composite hat" - made with aluminum shell and inserted with iron liner. So not only it's is light weight but also retain the use of emergency brake.

CamaroSS, CTS-V have been shipping. Corvette Z06 and G37S (Infiniti) will be test-fitted this week for production release. RB is the brake company that would not compromise the safety for light weight, so all our rear rotors w/drum brakes were made of iron hat, which will now all be converted to composite hats (like Z06 and M3) and also for the new applications.

* The pad wear is known to be a major concern by most non-professional racers for the replacement cost. Discussion on a brake compound characteristics: Temp/Coefficient of Friction/Wear Rate can never be exhausted. Nevertheless one thing to keep in mind is always try to keep the braking temperature LOW. Compare the wear from slotting edges to when you run over pad's threshold temperature, the wear is too small to be of any concern.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:50 AM   #49
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5/3/11
Warren-RB

Various OE brake set up

Let’s take a look on brake evolution:

Drum Brake --->Disc Brake:

* Solid Rotor (non-ventilated)
* Ventilated Rotor

* Straight Vane
* Curve Vane

Drum brake even today still is widely used for trucks/trailers for their heavy weight, and slower speed (not efficient for heat dissipation like disc brake). You can also see it in the rear for some compact cars for lower than disc brake.

For disc brake, these are the combination:

1. Front Ventilated, Rear Ventilated disc brake (with rear drum emergency brake)
This is the most common set up in today’s high end (motorsports) cars (typical):
European: Porsche, Mercedes, BMW
Japanese: EVO 8/9/10, STi, Infiniti G/Nissan Z
American: Corvette, Camaro, CTS-V, Viper, Mustang

2. Front Ventilated, Rear Ventilated (w/o drum e-brake)
European: Audi, VW
Japanese: NSX, RX7, RX8, Miata
Note: NSX shouldn't be here but typically Honda/Acura have very few w/ rear drum e-brake)

3. Front Ventilated, Rear Solid (with drum e-brake)
Subaru WRX, Acura TL

4. Front Ventilated, Rear Solid (no drum e-brake)
S2000, Acura TSX

For ventilated rotors, straight vane or pillar vane (non directional) is the main stream due to production cost consideration, unlike curve vane (directional) rotors, only one set of tooling is required.

There are some OE rotors (one piece) made with curve vanes (typical):

* BMW M3 fronts - Left and right are directional (correctly made)
* Corvette Z06 front and rear - Left and right are the same (non directional, incorrectly made)

The next level up is two piece rotor. Aside from Porsche's carbon ceramic rotors, to my knowledge the only true two piece rotors (disc has curve vane and is replaceable) that come from stock is EVO 10 MR models.

So much on general stock brake set up. Now let me hear from you what's insufficient on your brakes and what you like to improve.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:50 AM   #50
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5/3/11
Warren-RB

Introducing Howard Coleman from RX7

It’s my pleasure of inviting Howard Coleman from RX7 community to join our discussion here.

I must say Howard has a lot in common as Mike. He tracks and has extensive knowledge on chassis and brakes with hand on experience, and above all he always tries to help his fellow enthusiasts with his practical advice and assistance. He believes in good designs and well built product is the key for performance improvement, and doesn’t believe expensive stuff and name brand is necessary to be better.

So let’s welcome Howard.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:52 AM   #51
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5/4/11
landjet

Welcome Howard.

Warren, have you observed cracking in the slots of your rotors because of the holes in the slots? I thought that the holes in drilled rotors contributed to cracking in those rotors.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:53 AM   #52
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5/4/11
Warren-RB

Larry,
Your question is a very common reaction for people when they first see this un-conventional design, but if you look closely you will notice these are oblong slots (instead of round holes) and slots pattern are curved (instead of straight), evenly and alternatively spaced on inboard and outboard. So the possibility of cracking from those open slots is well minimized comparing to the conventional "Cross Drilled" (round holes) or "Surface Slotting" (straight).

In 6 years we have shipped hundreds of two piece rotors with open slots design which is our standard finish now, and so far we receive no compliant of rotor cracking due to this design.

Most intelligent and serious racers embrace this new technology once they heard and learned the features and benefits. I can also say quite a few try it because they are so tired and confused with different finishes. Once customer told me all the games they (other mfgrs) played are on "surface" (J-hook, diamond, dimple, random clover etc. etc.) nothing like RB in depth, a disc created and built with a technology that you and I can easily understand why it works better and I tend to agreed with him.

A good example is the group buy (Sept 2009) from CamaroSS. It uses the same front as CTS-V, which we first made only "surface slotting", but one member heard of this design, he asked and it ended up about 90% switched to "Open Slots".

Then we made the rears (also good for CTS-V), Z06, BMW 335i, G37S... so the acceptance of this finish is quickly expanding and I predict it will eventually supersede those conventional finishes.

I shall dig into some forums for some evaluation/review about this revolutionary disc finish.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:53 AM   #53
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5/5/11
howard coleman

Hello All,

it is always a pleasure to converse w road racers about out our passion... going fast on road courses. while i have been a mazda guy since 83 i certainly respect Porsche as they, perhaps as no other, have genuinely dedicated/engineered their product to excel ontrack as well as the street. here's to you guys and the Marque.

that said, brakes of course know no auto brand. they respond to weight distribution, force vectors, tire friction coefficient etc regardless as to whether they are hung on brand A or B. i look forward to contributing whatever i can within this thread as well as learning...

i will be out of town for a couple of days finishing my engine install/tuning, will read the thread with interest during that time and join the discussion this weekend.

i am looking forward to getting to know you all and maybe we will meet face to face at a track this year. Click here to enlarge

howard
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:54 AM   #54
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5/5/11
landjet

Warren, your design is intriguing for sure. What is the typical longevity of your rotors on 3000-3500lbs track cars? What price delta for 2-piece 350mm rotors?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:55 AM   #55
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5/5/11
MOBONIC

Land, that's impossible to state, every car driver and track is different. I know of race teams in alms with z2 drivers and one goes through brake pads 2 times faster than the other driver with everything else the same.

With that said maybe Warren can compare his rotors to other makes in more objective numerical value.

Or

Does he have any data that compares his rotors on track to other makes on the same car/driver/track/tire?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:55 AM   #56
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5/5/11
Warren-RB

A well performed and durable “STOCK” rotor is basically determined from the following criteria:

1. Material
2. Machining

But for a “TRACK” rotor, two more important ingredients are added to the formula:

1. Design
2. Material
3. Machining
4. Assembly (like two piece rotors)


Since our focus is on “TRACK” rotor so most of our discussions on brake technology would be within these parameters:

For example you asked about the alloys used in the rotor; that's a “MATERIAL” issue - Alloys are added as supplement, which is one of several ways to improve rotor material. We discussed about various disc finishes; A combination of “DESIGN” and “MACHINING” area.

I hope these criteria would help you to set as a guide for where you can look for a good (or better) rotor and what questions to ask from a brake mfgr before your decision on brake upgrade.

For performance comparison, the lab data (same set up, run side by side) is supposed to be more reliable and impartial, however in my years in brake business I never seen a mfgr would publish a lab result w/o putting them on the top. Have you? So we know how trustful these publications can be.

As we all know brake performance on tracks has so much variables than lab, (caliper, pad, brake fluid, tire, car weight), environment (weather and temperature, road conditions), and human factor (how a driver use his brake) and so on…

So where I can get an idea of how yours compare to others.

Before we get into review & testimonial, we must also know a name brand can cost more than a “Joe” brand, and a lot more than a “No” brand. Aside from marketing/publicity expenses, the bulk of expense is “Sponsorship” by giving “free stuffs” away and that’s how a name brand is created.

Nevertheless I firmly believe that brake is a critical component that I would rather devote our resources in product research and development than marketing and sponsorship*. At times I was even wondered where is American Brake Technology? Just replicating from European desgins? In fact this is one of the motivations that inspired me into those inventions and led us into countless brake projects for car enthusiasts from different communities in solving their brake issues and satisfy their desire to excel (please browse New Development section in our forum to get an idea) being RX7 is one of them.

Larry, your questions are very practical and common to other enthusiasts and I will make sure that any question always gets my attention with an answer that is easy to understand and make sense, if not please also tell me.

Thanks

*Our customers pay us to own RB brakes.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:56 AM   #57
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5/5/11
landjet

Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by landjet Click here to enlarge
Warren, your design is intriguing for sure. What is the typical longevity of your rotors on 3000-3500lbs track cars? What price delta for 2-piece 350mm rotors?
Please answer these questions.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:56 AM   #58
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5/6/11
Warren-RB

I don't have a direct answer on longevity, but some of these reviews may give you an idea:

Rob from S2000 has some comments on RB 2pcs rotors:
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/8324...t__p__19890953

I'm a firm believer in RacingBrake 2 piece rotors. I was cracking stock OEM and Centric rotors every 2 or 3 track days--and losing valuable track time--so I made the jump to RacingBrake 2 piece rotors for the S2000 stock caliper. I got an entire season out of them--23 track days--before a small crack finally made it to the outside edge of the disk. The crack didn't cause any vibration, I just happened to see it when changing brake pads. I ordered a set of replacement rings and bolted them up to my RB hats. RB even includes new locking hardware.

Rudy from Corvette Z06:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...ngbrake&page=6

5 Years later I am still running Racing Brake rotors and am on my second set of rotor rings having retired the car from active NASA TTU competition. The three piece rear rotors performed perfectly and never loosened or had any problems. Last time I ran, I had fresh DTC 70's front and rear and the rotors were just as stout and sound as when new. This is my street car now and I run Hawk HPS pads for the street on the same trusty Racing Brake rotors!

Still, in my opinion, a big bang for the buck!

Thanks Warren!

Some reviews from RX7:
Hyperion wrote a thorough review of the front and rear RB big brake kits, using Hawk DTC-70 (front) and DTC-60 (rear).
http://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php?...postcount=1369

"The rotors, as before, showed no measurable wear whatsoever. What do they build these things out of? Based on my current rate of wear, I will have to replace them in the year 2046."

Here is a detailed review from Gooroo. He uses Porsche 911 (993 - 1995-1998) TT "Big Red" Calipers in front, with DTC-60, and RB's rear BBK, also with DTC-60.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=790876

"Also of note is that we can see the effect of the Racing Brake rotor design. In the right rear I had paint both next to, and opposite of the tabs that hold the rotor to the hat. The difference shows up very obviously in the paint as a 200 degree difference in temp."

Note: This will be the 5th year since we shipped the kits, yet still no one is buying the replacement rotor rings - Definitely no good for spare parts business.

Dan from RX8:
http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?...24&postcount=2

I had 18 track days on the 2 PC RacingBrake rotors...they are still pristine....no grooving, warping or runout, and minimal wear. I used HPS and HP+ pads. Other than them wearing quickly...I have nothing but good to say about them.
------------------------------------------------------

Our rotor price for 350mm will be about $600 per rotor for front and $700 for rear (w/emergency drum brake).
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:57 AM   #59
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5/7/11
lanjet

Warren, sounds typical that track users get a year from the rotors while street users would get multiple years, or are all the above track cars?

The price is good. What is the cost of replacement rings? How many times can the hats be re-used?
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:57 AM   #60
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5/9/11
Warren-RB

Most customers use their cars for street and tracks although some are dedicated tracks, however when the cars are put on tracks there is no difference and in general customers measure the durability based on "TRACK DAYS" than miles or years. (Like Rob's experience on his S2000 stock lasts 2-3 tracks days vs. RB 26 track days)

The replacement disc is about 1/2 of the rotor cost. The hat can be re-used as long as they are not deformed.
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